In this episode of People Stuff, Dan and Michael imagine what it’s like to work for a living by giving some advice to a graduating high school student, reflecting on robots and boredom on the factory line, and speculating on just how true a job advertisement on an oil field can be. Why anyone would look for career advice from two washed anthropologists is beyond us. But, if you’re trying to figure out what to do with your life, this episode is for you.
In this episode of People Stuff, Dan and Michael discuss and/or are informed by:
“30 under 30-year sentences: why so many of Forbes’ young heroes face jail” by Arwa Mahdawi https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/06/forbes-30-under-30-tech-finance-prison
“Breaching Experiments” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaching_experiment
Studies in Ethnomethodology, by Harold Garfinkel (you may want to bookmark this one; Michael brings it up a lot)
Hey there, party people.Welcome to People Stuff, a weekly anthropological advice show hosted by me, Michael, and my colleague, Dan.Dan, how are you?I'm living, man.How are you?Well, I am obviously still living too.You have anything to add to that?You're just surviving?You're like at the lowest level of Maslow's hierarchy this morning?Yeah.I'm, I'm like a little, a little protozoa with my flagella out, just, uh, slipping along the, uh, primordial soup.All right.Well, let's just leave Dan and his flagella over there, and get on with it.Remember, we're anthropologists, and we know stuff about people.Less stuff about protozoa, as I'm sure you can figure out.People stuff.People stuff, not protozoa stuff.That's right.This week, we're talking about trade school versus college, working in a factory, and truth in marketing for oil field jobs.But first, we look at something that's caught our eyes this week.It's What Fresh Hell?Dan, what's on your mind?Michael, I'm so glad you asked.Have you heard of the Forbes 30 Under 30?Yeah, of course.It's a famous, it's a famous list of people who are going to go on to do world-changing thing.It's the brightest 30 people in the world under 30 years of age.Now, you've done field work in Silicon Valley, right?Like, the 30 Under 30, it often showcases, like, bright up-and-coming entrepreneurs, right?Yes.Yes, yes, that's the idea.Any famous people come to mind who have been on it?Um, wasn't Sam Bankman-Fried on it at 1 point?Yeah, I, I think so.I think so.And there's another one.Oh, I can't remember her name, but, um, she's, um, been indicted for defrauding a bank in New York.Is this the blood lady?Yeah.No.No, no, no, no.I, I don't think she'Well, you know what?Elizabeth Holmes might have been on it.In any event, there was, uh, an article in The Guardian where a reporter was doing some, like, back of the envelope math on the- Mm-hmm.30 Under 30 list.And they came to the conclusion that the list has committed $18.5 billion in fraud.That's it?These are the best 30 Under 30.I'm surprised they didn't do $180 billion worth of fraud.You g- y- y- wait til they get to the 40 Under 40 list.Yeah.I mean, this fake-it-'till-you-make-it idea is very strong and very, very compelling for a lot of people, right?Um, yeah.I'll, I'll tellIt's just such a funny one, cause it's like, is this a better predictor of career success or criminal fraud?And it appears to be a pretty good predictor of both?Yeah.I, I wasWell, you beat me to the punchline there, cause I was gonna say, I'm not sure I'm gonna draw such a fine distinction between career success and, and financial fraud, because they go kind of hand in glove these days.But the other thing is like, um, if you think the, um, 30 Under 30 is something, let me tell you my story about the Thiel fellows.I was- Wait, wait, wait.What's a Thiel fellow?Is it like a, like a light blue turquoise, uhWell, a Thiel fellow is, um, Peter Thiel- Oh.You've heard of him.Uh, Peter Thiel gives out these, um, fellowships every year- He's the vampire guy, right?Yeah, exactly.For young undergrads, and I mean like 18, 19, to skip or drop out of, skip their first year or 2 of college, drop out of college, and pursue a project they're passionate about, some science-y project they're passionate about.Oh, okay.Well, I was once working in a do-it-yourself biology lab.Wait.How competent are these people?Well, uh, thisI'll, I'll tell you how competent they are.I'll tell you exactly how competent they are.Okay.So I was once working at this, um, do-it-yourself biology lab in Silicon Valley.And this was, I don't know, 10 years ago or so.And, um, the board of this lab was, um, very excited, because they got, struck a deal with Peter Thiel, with the Thiel Fellowship to have 2 fellows work there over the summer to do some pretty- Oh, th- Okay.So- So, in the universe of Silicon Valley- Yeah.this is like a really big deal, right, that you're, you're being blessed by the vampire king himself.Yeah.The vampire king has all kinds of money, and he freely spends it if he thinks, uh, he can make a, make a, you know, he can extract some value from you.So, they were very excited to have these Thiel fellows.And they're like these 2 18-year-olds.I never actually met them in person.Maybe just once.But I, I knew them because I was a volunteer at this lab this summer, and, that summer.And every time I'd walk in, I wouldI had the morning shift early in the morning, and I would walk in, and invariably, I could tell when they had been in the lab overnight, cause they would work like midnight til 6:00 or something, or midnight til 8:00-and I would come in at 10:00.There's just a trail of broken equipment and, like, messy reagents all over the counters and all over the, all over the lab benches.And my God, they broke all of the equipment.They broke an autoclave.They broke a microwave.They broke, um, a scale.They broke several gel boxes.I mean, one night in particular, um- Is this incompetence or malice?Oh, it's incompetence.They just didn't know what they were doing.I mean, you could just, likeUh, we had a, we hadAnother volunteer there had been a, um, like a maintenance engineer at Texas Instruments in another life.Huh.And he's like a very highly trained, very, very highly skilled, um, electrical engineer.And he, he, he wo-He was the guy who fixed and repaired all the equipment.Cause, you know, you have this kind of lab where you donate equipment, you need a fix-it guy.He's the fix-it guy.Um, one ti- one morning, I came in and he, like, walked me through this forensic trail.He could say, See, they started here, and they broke the autoclave.They were trying to make a, they were trying to make something simple.It was like a, a, a agar solution, okay?And so it's a very simple- And just to be clear, presumably- Yeah.had you not dropped out of college and majored in biology or chemistry- Oh, yeah, yeah.You would, you would-you would've learned this in, like, your first semester, right?Like Biotech 101, if you get in any kind of wet lab work, you're gonna learn to do this.Yeah.Oh, okay.But, but- In, in theory also, you, you could've come to this DIY bio lab, taken an introductory course, and also learned to do this correctly.But they are Thiel fellows, so, you know, they're geniuses, and, you know, geniuses kind of skip to the front of the line, okay?Okay.So this will tell you all about how Silicon Valley works.Okay.They had started in the, uh, to try to autoclave something.And they hadItWhat- whatever they had autoclaved, they had set it at too high a setting and had blown up all their glass and plastic inside the autoclave.So they had created a- So they just-an im- improvised explosive device.Yeah.They blew upAnd, well, the autoclave is, like, very powerful and contained the explosion.But yeah, there was an explosion inside the autoclave.A- An autoclave is a sanitizer, right?Like your clean lab equipment- It's a sanitizer, right?Your- Yeah.clean surgical instruments, your sani-So they were trying to sanitize the materials and-Oh, okay.So, he was pissed because now- he's like, Now I have to take this stupid autoclave all apart again, and it, uh, clean out all the tubes and stuff, and all this.Then th- that hadn't worked, so they'd gone to the microwave, and they had blown up their solution inside the microwave.And so, he's like, Now I gotta clean all the microwave out.And then they had gone to, um, oh God, they had this- this scale where they were weighing things, but they had spilled some of the solution on the scale.And so it was all sticky, and it wasn't- it wasn't working.And they had broken something else, which is- is escaping me right now.And there was, like, broken glass all over.And he said- he saidI got there at 10:00, he said, I've already been at this, cleaning this thing up for 2 hours.He's like, I just can't take this anymore.And he quit the next day.And they, like, they never, like, showed up and took accountability for any of this?Who?The- the Thiel fellows.Look, man.If you're a genius, you don't have to be accountable for shit, right?That's the whole point.Okay, okay.What did they accomplish?Oh, you mean, like, uh, what was the outcome of their Thiel Fellowship?Yeah, yeah, yeah.What was the outcome of their genius and promise?Well, it was nothing that you couldn'tIt was nothing that couldn't be easily replicated by a third- or 4thyear undergraduate in any R1 university.I mean, it's nothing.What have the Thiel fellows accomplished?I mean, not much.Well, we have to see how many are in the 30 under 30.But- but what happened there is that eventually they were just there at the lab during the summer until they got more official lab space.Uh, they went on to some better built-out lab that I'm sure they- they, um, proceeded to trash as well, soYou know what this reminds me of?You- you remember in, like, uh, World War II, the- the cartoons that they would have about saboteurs and sabotage.Yeah.And it was the gremlins getting into things?Yeah.Yeah.It sounds like you guys deliberately brought the gremlins into the lab.And so you'd go home, everything would be clean, and then you'd show back up and the saboteurs had come through the lab.Yeah, it was a- that's actually not too bad.It was a lot like that.Because they would always work at night.The other thing was, like, nobody's supposed to have keys to the lab.You're not supposed toIt- it wasn't 24-hour access, but somehow they were all- they all had access after dark.You know, after midnight they would come in and work all night.Well, let us not question the wicked ways of the vampire king.Let us not.Let's just- just be sure, if you have to deal with the vampire king, bring a mop, cause you're gonna need it.Oh, dear.Let's get to it.So, all right.Here's our first question.Dear Dan and Michael, I am a 17-year-old senior at an excellent high school in the suburbs of a North Texas city.Hm.All right.I have good grades, excellent extracurriculars, and an active social life.Not to overtly brag, but I am easily in the top 10% of my graduating class and have a spot at UT Austin waiting for me.Oh, yeah.Texas does that, uh, top 10% thing, right?Yeah.If you're top 10% of your high school class, you- uh, you're in.Right.Okay.Everyone tells me- Cool.I should go to college, but I don't think it's worth the time and expense.A buddy is making good money working as an electrician in the solar industry.Have you heard of the Thiel Fellowship?Well, I mean, he could get it if he doesn't go to college.I mean, this isRight?This person sounds like a thoughtful individual.It- it sounds like it wouldn't be a good match for them.No, I don't see itI don't- I don't hear the whiff of, uh, I don't hear the whiff of genius in this.You don't- you don't hear grandiosity?Self-referential, myth-making genius in this question, which is really what that's about, soOh, it's just like, Hey, I went to c- I went to high school.I did good.What should I do?Yeah.So he wro- he continues, I heard that you guys went to college, so I did.So I did, and look what it did to me.Wait, have we spent more of our life inside of institutions or outside of institutions at this point?I've, uhI'm not gonna think about that right now.But I heard you guys went to college, so I was wondering, should I also go to university, like responsible adults say, and accumulate debt, or should I learn a trade and start working?Well- I know I will appreciate making money, but I don't wanna give up on a university education.Signed, Academically Vetted But Vocationally Inclined.Oh, well, okay thisYeah, I guess, uh, of all the people, we're, we're pretty, uh, qualified to give some hot takes on this one.Although I don't, I don't know.We might be a little biased.Um.Yeah, but which way?I just, one quick observation, like you don't necessarily have to go into debt.There are ways to pay for college that don't require debt.I mean, if you are good at school or extracurriculars or whatever, there are often scholarships and things.But, um, let's set that aside.Um, there's a bigger question here.Um, and like it's a little fuzzy in the questioner's asking, and I think this is typical of how people talk about college.They talk about it as this, like this generic thing that you should just go to, and it's like it's, uh, it's an escalator into the middle class or a successful life or whatever.But, I mean, there's been enough, uhGod, I don't even know what you wanna describe it as.Uh- Academic work?world historical events over the last 20 years- Oh, world historical events.that have caused people to question the value of, uh, higher education.Particularly- There's also been enough academic study showing that this escalator to the middle class idea kind of like goes more like this.Yeah, I mean it, yeah, it depends on the school you go to, cause like different schools send you into different parts of the job market.And like UT Austin honestly is probably still doing just fine in propelling people into the middle class, if that's what you're going for.But there's a bigger thing here, which is like, why, w- what, what do universities do?Um, and, you know, in kind of like the, uh, societal brain, it's like universities train people for jobs and send them into the middle class or whatever.Um, but it's a little more complicated than that, right?I mean, universities can train people for specific jobs, like you can be a football player or a chemist, and like you can actually go and study or do those things and it pushes you into it.But more generically, if you're not on a specific career path, it can mark you as desirable for the job market.Like, I'm the type of person that studied econ at UT, therefore- No, no, it trained you for the job path because you're the type of person who can put up with a bunch of bureaucratic BS for 4 years and take directions and somehow smile your way through it.That's- Yeah, yeah.And you've been domesticated- It trains you for organizational life, actually, is what it- Yeah, yeah.It's like a domestication, right?Yeah.I mean, there are these classic studies where like, uh, kids at prep schools don't get in fist fights anymore.Right?Which is a shame.They should be getting in fist fights, cause what's prep school for?But part of that is they've been trained that like the way that you're supposed to have conflict is you either suppress it or you write snippy letters to the New York Times, right?You don't punch someone.And- Or you start fighting back.Michael and I are not necessarily advocating, uh, punching people.But- Well, I'm not, I, I would say I am not not advocating punching people too.Yeah, but like part of what's going on with like, uh, the university training you generically for the job market and not for a specific profession is you're being socialized into putting up with the bullshit of the job market, the bullshit of producing CVs and resumes, the bullshit of begging your network for a job every time you're unemployed, the bullshit of not punching your boss in the face when you get laid off.Like, it's training you to just take all this shit as a card carrying member of the middle class.Um, so like it can train you for a specific job, like, you know, lawyer, chemist, football player, whatever.But it also more generically trains you for this like, uh, professional class of life.But there's actually a third thing that it does that Michael and I like about universities that, uh, does not get much airtime and rarely finds political backers, and that it trains you how to be a good citizen, and it trains you how to think and how to learn.I mean, it's the study of the liberal arts and the cultivation of the individual soul, um, which- Oh man, boy-is not marketable.that is a really romantic version.Wow.Yeah.And then, I mean, th- then the other thing is that they're a rite of passage, right?Like there's lots of different ways to become an adult in our society.Universities are one of them.Um, you can join the army and go through basic training.You can go to a university, you can go to a vocational path, right?Uh, you can get married real young.Like, these are all different rites of passage to turn you into an adult, and universities are one of those.Like, you show up, you lose your childish, uh, what, affect that you grew up with, and then you get some independence and you drink a lot.And I don't know.Do you think that's what, do you think university's a place where you lose your childish affect?I mean, historically like, um, like Ivy League universities are a place where you just extend your childhood for 4 years and explore yourself for 4 years.Isn't this the liberal arts?No, like that, I mean that, that is class formation, right?Like that is the- Yeah, of course.pretension that someone who comes out of that has for themselves as an adult, right?They're a sensitive individual who can appreciate, you know, all of that society and culture and civilization has to offer.And you've studied the liberal arts, you've seen a little of this, a little of that, a little of this, a little of that.You're cultivated, right?And, uh, you can, you can, uh, sublimate that childishness into, uh, going to museums or appreciating the arts or whatever.Yeah.I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean- Get the knives out, Michael.No, I mean, I think, I think you started out answering this question the right way and then slowly as you kind of bloviated about- Got the professor brain rot?the romanticism of college, you kind of like ended up with this kind of, I don't know, let's call it a, uh-uh- Vacuous?1940s, 1950s very romantic v- view of the university as this place where people study liberal arts and read great literature and cultivate themselves.I mean, that is not- Today, prior to the Cold War, as we say.That is not the large public research university today.I mean, this is, public research university today is dominated byYou know what the dominant majors are?Yeah, it's computer science and business.Engineering, nursing.I mean- Yeah.come on there's all theseI mean, it's the same thing, trade school, right?The humanities are in free fall.It is essentially a trade school at this point.Um, and, and this is, it's a totallyI mean, it is a side of, um, kind of, um, s- formation of sentiments, but the sentiments are very different than the sentiments, um, you were outlining.But- Yeah.on this rite of passage things, um, I just like, you know, learning a trade and becoming a craftsman is also a definite rite of passage, right?Oh, yeah.Trades are very rewarding.I mean- And they're often more independent than the bullshit that you have- Is often more independent.to do if you get a white collar job.That's absolutely the case.I mean, I mean, look, fixing something so that it works is very rewarding.Let's say, when your plumbing is broken and the plumber comes and now your plumbing works, I mean, what's better than that, right?That's, that's very good, right?So- What was your undergraduate major, Michael?Uh, liberal arts.And why did you pick that?It was a different time and place, Dan.I went to a very liberal liberal arts college.It was the 1940s?It was the late 1940s and I had, I had just been discharged from the army and I, uh-and I decided to go major in English at a Midwestern, um, a liberal arts college.And then later I went to Chicago- At Antioch College?to study this thing called, uh, uh, to Harvard to study this thing called, um, anthropology.Who am I?Uh, uh, who is Geertz, Clifford?Yeah, that's right, that's right.After, after- Yeah.I, you, butSo point being, I, you, you know what Geertz did before he went to college?Yeah, he was a lineman.No, he was not a line-What was he like the Wichita lineman out there?No, he wa- he was like a telephone pole guy, wasn't he?He was a lineman from the county and he- Yeah.drove the main roads, searching in the sun for another overload?I think so, right?No, he was in the Merchant Marine.Oh, okay.He grew up, he grew up in, uh, the, like, San Francisco and, like, what is now Dog Patch, joined the Merchant Marine and then went to college on the- Yeah.GI Bill.I mean, for the record, my undergraduate major was classics, it was ancient Greek.Um- Oh, that's even worse.Yeah.I just, likeI kinda despise the professional managerial shit that the university does.And I despise the idea that it only exists to produce people for the labor market.And, you know, I despise a lot of the, uh, bits and pieces of, you know, uh, how you get a job, network, all that kind of shit.But, um, I don't regret for one second my education, and I wouldn't want someone to miss the opportunity to get that if they wanted it.No, I don't regret mine either.Mine was very much, uh, like, I went to a liberal arts school that was an experimental offshoot of, um, UC Santa Cruz, in, which-was launched in the 70s.Yeah.And when I was there, um, I mainly took classes with the original faculty who arrived in the 70s.Yeah.And so, th- uh, let me just say, this original spirit of the experimental liberal arts school lived on in my education.Yeah.And I don't regret it at all, but what I'm saying is, that's really hard to find now.Those things have kind of disappeared.The university's changed a lot in the last 15 or 20 years, right?The last 10 years- Yeah.even.In the last 5 years, there's COVID and ChatG- ChatGPT has really changed, um, kind of the course of university education.You know, if you want that- So I don't, I'm notI, I agree with you that this kind of liberal arts education is still a very worthwhile thing, but I'm suggesting that maybe it's not so easy to get in the university today.Yeah.I think we, this, this whole question has been a kind of a spiral in us, uh, uh, displacing our own, uh, desires onto what the questioner wants.Mm-hmm.I, I mean, aren't all the questions like that?I mean-but this one in partic-Uh, it is just more obvious, right?I mean- Well, I mean, you ask 2 college professors, Should we go to college?It's gonnaA little bit of self-loathing.Yeah, look, I mean, so, so a big part of what universities do is credentialing.That's true.Um, a lot of pe- what people do want when they go to the university is to get credentialed into a popular high paying field like engineering, a STEM-y field like engineering or computer science.Yeah.Yeah, yeah.Okay, so- That's a big part of it.Um, is that what you want?It doesn't sound like that's what the questioner wants, though.No, the questioner just says his buddy's making good money working as an electrician in the solar industry.So like, if that's all your concern is, just go do that.I mean, you know, that's a very specific career path that appears to be in a growth industry.I mean, it's good money.Go for it.I- I don't get any sort of, um, uh, tortured scholar stuff coming through here.Uh, and I also don't get any sort of like status seeking coming through here.Um, you know, I- I guess one thing I'll say is like if you're gonna go to a university, think about like is- are you getting something from this that you can't get somewhere else, right?So like, if you just wanna make money and have a good job, there's lots of ways to do that.Uh, but like if you want someone to teach you ancient Greek, there are fewer places to go and find that in the world.But heaven help you if that's actually what you want.Well, I mean- I mean, if- if- if the question is, um, he wants to engage in these kind of discussions, um, you know, that you might talk- You know, I mean cause it's the classic like- What is the classic romantic view of liberal arts school is that it's all seminar and you're sitting around arguing over texts all day.Yeah.And- Which is- which is literally what I did.And I work at a business school now, and- Huh?I work at a business school now.Oh, yeah?And, um, I- I- I- Are you- are you over there arguing about Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations all day?That would be preferable.Mm-hmm.That would be much preferable.But every time the teaching and learning people come by, I tell em, I don't get what your fucking job is.My entire education is sitting around a table reading books and talking about it.Oh, if you're teaching and learning people- And unless you're gonna help me do that, go away.Oh, no.The- the ed tech teaching and learning people, that's a whole- that's a wholeI don't wanna get into that.That's a whole different ball of wax.But what you could do- Did- did you see that on the podcast?You know, we're socialized in the professional managerial class, but Michael just got ready to kill someone.I didn't- I'm not ready to kill anybody.It's justI- I was- I have been accused of not being well socialized several times in the past, and, um,I was socialized into it- By teaching and learning?but just like it was kind of, patchy socialization.Let me put it that way.Opportunistic socialization.Yeah, I, umWhich is something about education people should realize.I mean, the, um, person in the position of the learner has the final say on whether anything's learned or not.You can always, to g- echo back here to our- to our prev- to our previous episode, you can always refuse the lesson, right?Yeah.Yeah.So, yeah, okay.And so in many ways, I did refuse the lesson of socialization.But what this- what this writer can do is he can join our book club in our Discord server.Uh, PeopleStuff Press.PeopleStuff Press.A subdivision of PeopleStuff LLC.Yes.Um, yeah.So, God.Um, look, man, universities train you for specific jobs.They can train you for, you know, to put up with all the bullshit of the professional managerial class.Uh, or, you know, if- if you're real careful about it, you can get this kinda classical liberal arts thing and take a couple years to think and read and argue.Um, I wouldn't just go to a university because everyone's like, Yeah, you should probably do it.I mean, you should figure out like is this actually what you wanna get out of it.And give- Okay.I do actually have something practical to interject here.This- this-this, um, what are you?The managerial professional class?Yeah, yeah, yeah.You know, a lot of these entry level jobs are going to be, um, displaced by AI in the n- near future.So, um- Yeah, man.I would, uh, you know, as- Anything that writesanything that writes like entry level prof- professional managerial style prose is going to be, uh- is going to be, uh- those jobs can get harder to come by.Let me put it that way.So, yeah.Yeah.My advice to you is, um, go electrify the solar grid, and then if you- if you wanna talk about ideas, you know, join our book club orYou can always go back to college later, and you might enjoy it more cause, uh- Yeah, you- you can also, you know, start book clubs with your friends.I mean- You know-thinking doesn't just happen in the university.Actually, the best way to enjoy university is when you don't really need university.That's the ultimate thing.That's the best- Yeah, cause you don't have to put up with professors bullshit.Yeah.You can just be like- Because you're not likeI mean, the people who enjoy it the least and get the least out of it, I think are the people who are like desperate to graduate because they need a good job, right?If you have a good job- And they want to go to med school and you are just a stepping stone.Get out of their way.That hurts.It's too close to home.But, yeah.That'sYeah, that's right.I mean the- the ones who like send you the 2page letter of re- of recommendation for themselves they've already written- they've had written since they're like 6, you know?Oh.Those are- Yeah, those are fun.Yeah.Those are fun.What's our bottom line here?Well, you can have- uh, you can have your, uh, trade school and university all together at last.You can have it- you can have your cake and eat it, too.Have it all.Yeah.I think the bottom line here is- Work the lines and read books.university is great, but it's really great when you don't need it.Yeah.Okay.WellDon't be in a- a relationship of dependency with the university, and you will get a lot more outOkay.Let's move on to our second question.Hey, guys.I just started working on the production line at a major European automotive company's manufacturing plant in South Carolina.I just graduated from high school, and this is my first job.""Everyone tells me I'm lucky to have a job in manufacturing, but I'm stuck doing some cleanup grinding on bolts, touching up paint, polishing cars, and doing quality control on assembled cars.The robots do all of the real work.Also, the pay is bad, and I have lousy benefits.My boss says if I stick it out, I can eventually move off the production line into management or learn to program robots.But he has not given me a timeline and the daily grind is, well, a grind.Is it worth sticking out?Should I go to college and risk being indoctrinated?What is the future of manufacturing?Oh.All right.So, um, you know, there's a lot of romantic remembrances around manufacturing making the rounds these days.Just like college?Just like college.As people romantically- Dan romantically remembers university and this, um, idea from the f- from the 50s.I don't think I'm romanticizing it.I think I want it to be something that it's not.That is romanticit- titization then.And that's the, the, the cruel optimism.Yeah.The cruel optimism?Okay.Well, luckily I don't suffer from it.I don't suffer from a cruel optimism.Just a realistic pessimism.Okay.Here's the thing-about manufacturing.Um, robots aren't going away, right?Even places like China, manufacturing employs fewer people than it used to, right, as automations entered factories.And that's why you're left with jobs like attaching windows and grinding bolts.Robots do all the precision work these days.And also, you know- Why aren't robots doing the, the, the grindy or the polishy stuff?It's probably too hard.It's probably, like, a little too analog, right?I mean, it's- You know, we should get a Peter Thiel Fellow on this, right?A Thiel Fellow, I think they could solve this.You think s- by grinding the bolts themselves?I just imagine a P- a Thiel, uh, like a Thiel Fellow in one of those suits.You know, in one of those suits that does motion tracking, grinding bolts.With, like, little ping pong balls?Actually, you know what?I would not want one of these Thiel Fellows to grind a bolt on any car I'm driving.Let me just put it that way, okay?Because I don't want, like, the frame to f- the wheels to fall off or the frame to break in half.You, you think you'd get, like, a Tesla situation where, like, the panels fall off and the accelerator sticks?I, I think it would be worse.Yeah, I think it would be worse.Yeah, I, I don't think they'd- I don't know what they would do, but-actually finish the job.I think they'd get bored and walk away.My fear would be they would, they would think they know better than the original robot programmers and try to reprogram the robots, and this is- But then they'd give up halfway through because they couldn't, uh, be bothered to get through the entirety of the code base.Or they'd try and optima- uh, they'd try and automate their code review.Or they'd over-optimize their code, and they would forget to do something really important.Yeah.But anyways, look, manufacturing jobs were once unionized and free of Thiel Fellows.So, you know, you didn't have to worry about them.Unions had, like, aYou know, what happened on the line was a union problem, right?Yeah.And unions were powerful counterweights to management demands.I mean, in your European automotive manufacture in the south, I know you're not unionized there.So, you are kind ofY- y- there's a big piece of leverage that you're missing here.Um- Yeah, I, I mean, I think the only time people g- are getting, uh, nostalgic about manufacturing is they're actually getting nostalgic about union jobs.I mean, i- i- Yeah.A factory without, uh, union protection is literally a grind.I mean, it is just a race to the bottom to squeeze as much out of you as possible.Right.The union is the only thing that steps in and tells management, Fuck off, slow down, and have a humane workplace.But, yeah, and it's also that solidarity that says, ah, yes, what we do on the line is actually very, very important to the quality, to the way this company runs, you know?Our jobs are very important.I mean, nothing says you're not important to the, to the process like gri- like a non- being non-unionized grinding a bolt or fixing a windshield, right?I meanYou read, you read City of Quartz, right, by, uh, by Davis?Oh, yeah.A long time ago, but I've read it.I mean, he talks about the, the Kaiser Steelworks, right?Yeah, out in Fontana?Yeah.Yeah.And, like, he describes this s- I mean, kind of like aI mean, this is probably a bit of nostalgia as well.But a sort of a working class paradise where you have social clubs and you have all sorts of amenities that are provided as a consequence of having these unionized jobs.Yeah, and that's the other thing that goes along with it, right?I mean, you're gonna go drink your beer in the tavern after work.You know, there's all these social activities.And, and it's a- They even have a golf club.A golf club.Sure, why not?It's a way of life, right?I mean, it's a, it's a whole, it's a whole way of living in, in, in, uh, uh, eh, that used to be present in these un- unionized jobs, and these unionized towns.'Cause you know some people talk about the loss of ma- loss of manufacturing and rarely do they is it, is it just, "Oh, my job I don't make as much."It's, it's mostly, it's, uh, oftentimes or usually, like, "Ah, this town used to be alive and now the town's now dead."And that's more than, that's more than a job, right?Yeah.It's not the job.There's a, there's like a mistake here.I mean, it's, it's, it's- Yeah.not the reality of whatever the hell you're doing to a Chevy Impala or whatever.Yeah.I mean, it's, it's the, it's the larger social matrix that these jobs were in.It's the social fabric that- Yeah.comes along with a town like this.Yeah, absolutely.Yeah.And I mean, I think for that reason, our questionerWhat did they sign off as?Oh, we didn't get a sign off.Um, our question- Oh, if you're gonna write us a question, be sure to include a clever sign-off.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Well, we'll call them Grinding It Out.Um, what- Grinding It Out.What Grinding It Out is like accurately noticing is the absence of this community, the absence of the union, the absence of the stability, the absence of the ability to negotiate with management about, you know, work conditions so they don't suck.Um, and, you know, eh, that's not gonna f- get fixed by having minor promotions along the line.No, no.I mean, I mean, pro- pe- moving up to programming the robot is not gonna, it's not gonna fix that, right?There's also nostalgia to think that m- manufacturing is gonna come back to the US in the same form it had during the '50s, '60s, or even the '70s.Well, the funny thing about that stuff too is that by a lot of measures, even after all of this outsourcing, the decimation of things like the garment industry, manufacturing capacity, like the amount of stuff we produce based on the people that are producing it, has gone way up in the United States.It's up, yeah.Yeah.I mean, it, it's higher than it's ever been.We just do more stuff with fewer people.I mean, it used to take- Yeah.I mean, look, it's technology-tens of thousands 0and cost structure is gonna, is going to tell the tale here.I mean, it used to take tens of thousands of people to run a steel mill.Now it's what?A couple 100?Yeah.Exactly, exactly.And it's producing the same, if not more, steel.So there's like, the localized job itself was made bearable, enjoyable, subject to nostalgia as a consequence of unionized job protections.And by the way, even if you weren't working a unionized job in the '50s or '60s, because there was like 30% unionization in the private sector in the United States, y- y- you would have to compete with unionized jobs for labor.And so- Yeah.It had a halo effect on, uh, on the price- Yeah.on, on the la- on, on wage increases, right?And so- Yeah.It set standards across the whole economy.really strong wage forYeah.It set standards across the whole economy.I mean, you know, this is like, but this, this kind of trend to automation is, is it's, it's in, it's also in the way plants are designed today.You know, I mean, they're just made to be automated.So that's- Yeah.that's from the start.When a plant is laid out, it's designed and laid out for automation.You know, this is even in, I was just thinking about this, this is even in farming.You know, everyone complains about how many almonds there are in California, but you know why, one reason there's so many almonds in California?Because you, it's because you can harvest it with just a- Yes.a skeleton crew.You get the thingy that shakes the trees.Yeah.They just shake the trees, so there's one person who drives a machine that shakes the tree, it's literally just go brrr.Yeah.And then somebody comes along with like a big drop cloth, and someone comes behind them in a, like a tractor.You pick up the drop cloth, dump off the almonds in a, in a hauler, and then you just move on.Like, 3 people can harvest the massive, um- Tons and tons of almonds.massive blocks of almonds.And so you, it, it's, it's like that.And that's one reason like almonds have become such a, such a hot commodity in f- in, um, certainly California agriculture.Yeah.A- and by the way, this actually does bring up a kind of a larger point about the technology that Grind It Out is encountering, right?Grind It Out is doing these things that the robots can't quite do yet, you know, finishing bolts, doing polishing, whatever.What you're gonna see, because you live in a capitalist society, innovation is gonna help capitalists.And the thing that the capitalists want is to rely less on human labor.And so there's always gonna be this drive that that is the point of innovation, right?To allow people to do things quicker, with fewer people.Um, so that's why we spend so much money on robots, and like that's why we're putting endless amounts of money into these large language models, the ChatGBTs or whatever, right?The point of this is to have fewer people working and to have to rely on fewer people for industrial processes.Yes.And it's been wildly successful, yeah.Wildly successful.So I think the bottom line on this question is, um, I think, I think Grind It Out should go to college actually in this case, uh, because a degree here is gonna help them move into management or into robot f- building and robot management field, or what- whatever the future factory looks like.Or, you know, if, if they got, uh, a fighting streak in 'em, uh, they could start unionizing.You know, they could try to organize and hook up with their local organizers to start a campaign.It's a hard road, but it's important.That's true, or they could go to college and, and learn to exist inside the big machine.And have utter contempt for people that labor.Yeah.We're not giving Grind It Out a lot of good options here, are we?Well, well, look, look, Grind It Out didn't ask for good options.He just asked for advice.Yeah.I think like if we just take the individual case, like if you, you just got outta high school, you work in the factory, and this is your response to it, I think at an individual level, you either gotta get out or you gotta change the environment.Getting out is, you know, going to trade school or going to college.Changing the environment is unionizing.Yeah, that's good advice, that's good advice.Yeah.Yeah.Uh, they're all real, they're all hard, but yeah, I guess that's what that is.Yeah.All right.Solidarity forever.Now, it's time for Fixing Shit, the section of our podcast where we come up t- f- with solutions for life's problems.Dan, what are we fixing today?Michael, I've waited for some time for this.I think it is time that we fix professional sports-in America.Uh, what's wrong with professional sports in America, Dan?Also, I feel like this topic w- it-could require, like, 20 or 30 episodes to fix.I would like to keep up, uh, our- our unionization and, uh, labor management dispute theme, and I would just like to suggest that the owners of professional sports franchises in the United States have way too much power.Think of the Washington Commanders under Dan Snyder, just a multi-decade vampire that sucked the life out of the club with no recompense.Wait, wait.Dan- As soon as he was gone-do you watch football?No.Dan Snyder no longer owns the Commanders, and they made it to the NFC Championship game- That's what I'm saying.last year.Once they got rid of him, the curse was lifted.Okay.Okay.He's a case study.Okay.So it's not that you don't watch it, it's that you watch too closely.Okay.I'm saying, yeah, now he's gone, look what happened.And this is a proof positive argument that we need to knock the shit out of these owners.We need to diminish their power over their little fiefdoms.And I think the solution is relegation.If it's good enough for the UK soccer, uh, the Premier League, it's good enough for us.There have to be real consequences for when a billionaire owner fucks up.Plus, who doesn't want to see the Yankees forced to play, uh, AA ball for a season or 2?So, okay, so- so okay, okay.So- Where to start?Ra- relegation.Relegation, just for our listeners who do not follow English soccer as closely as Dan, relegation is when you have a bad season and you're relegated to a lower league.And you think about what you did.And you have to consider what, how- how you screwed up, okay?Whereas, in the United States, for example, major league baseball has a monopoly, so you can't have competing leagues, and there is no pressure to relegation.Okay, okay.Well, what would you do for, like, the NBA or the NFL, where there's no competing league?Well, there's the developmental league.I mean, maybe they have to go down and play college ball for a season.Okay, okay, okay.So let's say the Cleveland Browns- You just- you pick, like, a random ass community college, and they get the Seahawks for a season.Seahawks.Okay, okay.So wait, wait, wait, I see how this works.So let's say the Cleveland Browns have yet another disastrous season, and because of Mike Brown, and then they have to play in, like, the Big Ten or the Big 12 for a year?Yeah, definitely.They got to play all- And if they do well, they can move back up.They have to play Ohio State.Yeah, yeah.And if they do well, they can move back up.And if they do well, they can move back up.My- my hope is that there will be so much shame embedded in this, that billionaires will be forced to try.And so then do all the professional players have to move down to the college salary scale?UhIt's not bad for the coaches 'cause the coaches will end up making-as much money or more.There's- you know?But I'm just saying, soI don't want to punish the coaches for the, uh, the depredations and failures of management.So I would like to keep, uhuh, keep their salaries about the same.Do you consider the coaches part of management?Uh, they're kind of like an overseer.I mean I mean, the coaches are, by the very definition of professional managers, aren't they?I also don't think these teams should have coaches.I meanWell, how can you have a team without a coach?Well, you- you- uh, you- you still have a coach, but you elect them.And so, like, if your coach sucks, you fire him.I think that- that the players should be able to fire the coach.Are youDo- do you know about unionization in the NFL, for example?Tell me more about the NFL Players Association.Look, uh, the NFL has a very strong player's union.Is that why they're gonna be playing 19 games a season?Well, they're gonna be playing 19 games a season because the sweetener is that the owners have to share revenue with the players from the television deal.Yeah, yeah, yeah.This is good.I want more of this.Yeah, that's why they'll do it.They'll be, they'll be more money for them, sure.I mean, player salaries are up, but they are unionized.They've gone on strike at several points and have near- nearly brought the, uh, NFL to its knees.I just want a situation where you don't have like, a Dan Snyder, or who was the guy with the Oakland Athletics who took them to West Sacramento?Al Davis?Al Davis has been dead for a decade now.No, no, no, no, no.The, um, the- the- the- um, the athletics.His son, Mark?Oh, the Athletics?Oh.No, no, no.Not the- not the guy with the weird bowl cut who took the Raiders to- to- to Vegas.Hmm.Uh, John Fisher, right?He's the- Oh, okay.Oakland Athletics guy?Yeah.Yeah, I mean, we just have to have some sort of a rip cord that you can pull where you don't have a vampire who drains a city's professional sports franchise- Okay.No, no.of all its charm, all of its charisma- Dan-takes its withered corpse out to West Sacramento- Dan-and leaves it to die.Dan.Dan, like so manyI- I- I'm trying to be polite about this, but at thisYou have this by the, you have this entire problem by the wrong end.Okay.I think I- I have exactly the opposite reaction.More billionaires should own sports teams because it's a safe place to put them.Okay, Dan Snyder, when he owned the Commanders, all he did was cause trouble for the Commanders, not anyone else.I mean, you think about somebody like Jerry Jones, owner of the Dallas Cowboys, what kind of trouble could that guy cause if he were unleashed in the world?You know, there is a parallel universe where, uh, the NFL let Trump buy the Bills, and he's- Well, I would-probably not the president.That's exactly where I'm going.You know, in the '80s, Trump wanted to buy into the NFL.Yeah, yeah.He wanted to buy the Buffalo Bills and he was banned by the owners from buying them because they didn't think he was responsible enough to own an NFL team.They thought he would run the league into the ground.I mean, this was the, this is like the worst mistake in American politics in the last 50 years is the NFL owners not letting Trump buy in, because it's a safe place to put him.He could just be up there in Buffalo owning the Bills, doing whatever he does with the Bills, complaining about whatever he wants, you know, and it would've been, it would've been wonderful.Okay.So i- if you accumulate a certain amount of money, you're- you're, uh, kind of compelled to buy a professional sports team, is what you're saying.I mean, I just think it's a safe place to sandbox them away from the rest of society, because sports are so compelling to these billionaire owners.Like, I would like for Elon Musk to buy a sports team, or Peter Thiel to buy a sports team.So you think if he was part of the, um, the Warriors ownership group- He can have like the Marvelous Avengers or something.So you think if Thiel was part of the ownership group for like the, uh, the Golden State Warriors, we wouldn't have gotten J.D.Vance?Oh, absolutely.Absolutely.That's absolutely correct.All right, all right, all right, all right, all right.That's right.If he would own like the- the San Francisco 49ers or something, yeah, it would occupy his time.You know what?You know what?I'll go along with this- Yeah.because what it does too is it introduces more competition into this ecosystem.So- Absolutely.it's not just this- this preserve where there are no consequences to your action.You're constantly getting new billionaires who are gonna fight each other for status, position, or whatever.This is the proper use of billionaires.Combat.Well, I mean, it's like symbolic combat through the arena of sports ownership.Th- this is what billionaires should be doing.They should be doing this.They should be spending all of their time, all of their energy, and most of their money on sports teams.It's a safe sandbox forWhat do we do with the Green Bay Packers?Well, the Green Bay Packers are like the, like- like a just an outlier, right?I mean, it's a community-owned team.It's really kind of amazing.You can buy a share of the Green Bay Packers and it's really- That's incredible.it's an incredible situation.They're never gonna leave Green Bay.They always try and field a competitive team.They always do.Yeah, they're always competitive.They're- they're good.They've been good the last few years and it looks like they're gonna be even better this year, so.So I guess we have 2 paths here.Yeah.If we actually wanna solve the sports problem, we gotta get rid of the fucking billionaires and go to some sort of a community thing with more competition.Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.But if we actually wanna solve the societal problem- Green BayIf you wanna solve the sports problem, Green Bay, the Green Bay Packers model is the way to go.But if you wanna solve the billionaire problem- Yeah.short of guillotines, um- Then like, um, the Oakland Raiders model, you know, Carolina Panthers model is the way to go.Yeah, just warehouse 'em somewhere.Look at that- uh, like hedge fund owner whose name escapes me who bought the Carolina Panthers.He's run that team into the ground-by his meddling, constant meddling in the- in the management of the team.I think James Dolan is set to do that again with the Knicks.Oh, yeah.Absolutely.Absolutely.But what I'm saying is like, you know, billionaires are dangerous.They're like fire.They're dangerous.I mean, look at what Elon Musk has done in the last 6 months with this Doge business.He's just caused a lot of upturned, a lot of apple carts.Look at what the Thiel fellows did in miniature in this lab.You know, it's just, it's a disaster.They need to be sandboxed off from society where they can't do any more damage than they've already done.And s- professional sports are that san- is that sandbox.I mean, James Dolan is an interesting case 'cause like you have to imagine that if you put him in like a mid-level position in the Department of Defense, we probably already would've bombed Panama.But left to his own devices, he gets to fire coaches of the Knicks and, uh, force bands to allow his band to do, uh, opening gigs for him at The Garden.Exactly.Exactly.Exactly.That it keeps him off the street.Because we can't do- I mean, it keeps themYou know what it does?It keeps them out of politics in a really overt way.I like that.I like that a lot.Yeah.Okay.Well, there you have it.And also, also, if you play this right, there could be a couple more, um, Green Bay Packer-style teams, and you could just pit the people versus the billionaires.And that's an even better made-for-TV kind of battle.You know what I think we should do?Okay.You get a certain amount of money, you're forced to buy a professional sports team.Yes.And, uh, you know, there's all sorts of societal inducements to force you to pay attention to it and not cause mischief elsewhere.Right.Um, but there is a sunset for your ownership.Perhaps, upon your death, it converts into a community buyout.What are you gonna do with the billionaires' children then?That's the problem.Well, they'll have to buy their own sports team when they come into their inheritance.There's gonna be nothing but sports teams in this, in this world after that.Do you have any idea how much Americans like sports?Yeah, a lot.That's true.You know what?You know what?It's been a while since we've had a new sport.Maybe we can have new sports introduced, you know?Yeah, man.One of these billionaires is gonna wanna make their mark, and I would love it to not be in the Department of Education.The problem, the problemYeah, good point.The problem is that there's more billionaires- The wrestling lady.Yes.She's running the Department of Education.Yeah.You know, I would like her a lot more as the owner of the Buffalo Bills.Yes.Or if she just stuck to the fucking WWE.Yeah, she already has a sports league.Yeah, she's grown bored with it or something.I don't know.Yeah.No, but, but this is the proper use of billionaires.Yeah, yeah.Uh, expensive symbolic combat.Exactly.Exactly.All right.Well, I think we fixed sports.Oh, yeah, th- we definitely fixed sports.I feel like we've done good work here.We're going to take a break now, and when we get back, we've got one more question.All right, our last question."Long-time listener, first-time asker here.I am a 31-year-old woman working in human resources for a small oil well service company in Bakersfield.Don't start with me about working in the oil industry, Dan.It pays the bills."Hey, man.I was just pumped about Bakersfield.Are you also a fan of Bakersfield?I thought I was the only one.You know, as a child, I had to go there a lot, and I didn't like it.But as an adult, I've come to appreciate how weird it was.My grandpa built, uh, hot rods, and he'd go to car shows there.Oh, yeah.And so we'd go with him to these car shows in Bakersfield.Like the, like the Fontana?And then we'd getYeah.Yeah, I went to the Fontana Drags as a kid, butAnd I didn't really like Bakersfield when I was a kid, but I, I have to drive up 99 on a regular basis these days, and, uh, I always stop to eat in Bakersfield.Oh.Bakersfield is a very underrated food town.We would always go to Basque restaurants when we were there.Yeah, like the Pyrenees Cafe, sh- That's the first place they had cow tongue.Yes.Shout-out to Pyrenees Cafe.Luigi's, the second-oldest Italian deli in California is downtown, not far from the Pyrenees Cafe.Uh, 24th Street Cafe, also good.And last time I was there, I ate at Mexicali.I mean, it's just- Which is, like, the oldest Mexican restaurant in the US- It's incredible.where I saw the guy from Notorious Bakersfield podcast.Shout-out to Notorious Bakersfield podcast.Okay.Yeah.Yeah, yeah.Well, more gushing about Bakersfield will proceed, I assume, as we, we, we answer this question.Yeah.Uh, well, uh, uh, this answer will definitely contain a reference to Merle Haggard and/or Buck Owens.I guarantee you that.Anyhow, okay.So here we go.Okay."Anyway, my problem is that when we hire people to service the pump jacks, we have an extremely high turnover rate of 90% per year.The average in our industry is around 60%.When I conduct exit interviews with exiting employees, they tell me the job description does not match the job's day-to-day work.They don't want to work hard.They don't want to get dirty.They think it is too hot, and they don't want to breathe in oil vapors all day.I have rewritten and rewritten our job ads, but if I don't fix this soon, I might be turned over.What is going on, and how do I fix this problem?Signed, Overbaked."So, okay.Let's, let's just start with some preliminaries here.I just wanna assume some things before we get into this.And Michael, you can, uh, you can, uh, mock me mercilessly if these assumptions are unwarranted.But- Oh, I absolutely will, Dan.I just wanna start off assuming that there's nothing misleading in the job advertisement, right?Like, it's, it's a normal job advertisement.It, it says as much or as little about a job as any other job advertisement.Like, the- I mean, how can it be misleading about servicing a pump jack?Yeah.Like, I, I'm just gonna go out on a limb.I mean, I don't know.Maybe they give something about like, uh, how quickly you'll move up the ranks, or like, you know, air condition- conditions when you're not on the pump jack, or whatever.Like, let's just assume there's not any of that bullshit.Uh, I'm also gonna assume that the pay is fine, the benefits are adequate, scheduling's reasonable.I, I know these aren't necessarily reasonable, but like if these are the issues, they're pretty simple to solve, right?Pay people more, better benefits, don't schedule like a psychopath.You think those are easy to solve?I, I don't know if they're easy or hard to solve.I don't know what this company's like, but like- Okay.Okay.It, it's not like some magical, mystical anthropology shit to pay someone more money.No, uh, it, it can't be some magical, mystical, um, business shit to pay someone more money though.Well, it's probably- Might be impossible.'cause you have the ethos of The Teal Fellow, the, to contend with.And being inhabited, yeah.Yeah.Uh, I'm also gonna assume that like, there are normal levels of danger in the job, management and supervision is competent and creates a warm and welcoming work environment, right?Laugh me off the podcast.I get that.But like, if these are the issues, right?If you have an unsafe work environment, like for whatever, you know, doing this work is, if management are hostile assholes, like, if those are your problems, like, an anthropology advice podcast is not gonna give you some magical way to solve it.You have to have managers who aren't assholes and treat their employees like humans.Like, that has to be part of it.And, and we don't get anything in, in the question to suggest that like, this shit is going on at the company.Like I'm, I'm just imagining my way through the preliminaries that like, okay, if this is your problem, like, th- that's, that's what you have to do to solve it.Well, I mean, she does say the turnover rate is 30% higher than the industry average.I mean, how these things are- Yeah.calculated, I have no idea.But, um, that does seem, that does seem like a clear red flag, doesn't it?Yeah.So maybe there is something with the workplace, right?You know, if, if people are quitting because the foreman refuses to shower and berates their employees, well, like, there's your problem.I have a much simpler take on this question.I mean, I think what the questioner has run afoul of here is, um, what's called the shop floor problem.In a nutshell, no formal description of work can possibly capture the embodied everyday nature of that work.Let me explain.I'm gonna give you a very practical how to example of how to write this job description.What you need to do to write an adequate job description that will take into account all of these, all of these things.Because if in fact, let's assume Dan's wrong and that, that, that, you know, you have some kind of terrible management and low pay.Okay.You still have this turnover problem.In theory, you could hire people who would accept that and they wouldn't leave, right?You, you couldThis turnover problem can beBecause it's the turnover that, that's the problem, right?So let me explain how to write a job description.So in the 1960s, Harold Garfinkel gave some undergraduate students homework.Oh, this is gonna be your simplification.You're gonna give them some Harold Garfinkel.Yeah, that's right.Okay.That's right.Okay.That's right.When in need, Garfinkel is there for you, Dan.Okay.He gave homework in the form of- People snuffers, do yourself a favor and go Google Harold Garfinkel and read a little bit of it.Don't do that.YouThere's no need to Google Harold Garfinkel.Just listen to my soothing voice as I explain what to do here.That's all you have to do.Uh, definitely don't try to read anything he wrote.Don't do that, okay?But yes, Michael will simplify things for us.Go, go ahead, Michael.Simplify.Ugh.Now you give me a headache, Dan.Okay.Anyways- Anyways, this homework was called breaching experiments.Basically, he asked students to go to restaurants and pretend not to know what a restaurant is or who or what a waiter was or how service works.Basically, pretend to be a Teal Fellow.Uh, kind of, yeah.Or to have everyday conversations with their housemates and pretend not to know common terms and concepts, like couches or tables or things like this.Okay, as you can imagine, this study was- Well, The Teal Fellows know what a couch is 'cause they're all couch fuckers.Yeah.They, they do know what a c- the couch is, umYeah.Um, this was wi- this is a wildly stressful kind of thing to do, but the idea behind it is very simple and very powerful, and it's to discover the tacit knowledge and rules of a social situation, whether that be maintaining a pump jack, being a Teal Fellow, or just having a conversation over dinner.So here, if you wanna write an adequate description, join the pump jack crew for a few days and pretend not to know the meaning of common terms or how to use tools, or maybe not even how to drive, maybe even pretend not to know what a pump jack is or how the oil business works.This way- Michael, do you want the turnover rate to be even higher?No, itJust a couple of days, right?And this way, you're gonna learn a lot about the tacit knowledge and skills required because you're going to be instructed in exactly what it does, it takes to do this job.And with this knowledge, you'll be able to write a fantastic job description.Of course, you might also get fired.But, you know, I hear there's still a lot of jobs in solar, so, uhWait, so like, uh, is the theory here that the description is just not a- adequate enough, so like if you set expectations- That's my theory.correctly, people will stay on the job?Absolutely.But like, your whole premise is that you can't adequately describe an experience.So like- Well, I mean, uh-there's, there's, they're never gonna be able to get the experience from the description.No, no, no, no, no.You can't completeThere, no, no, no, no.You are confusing 2, 2 very basic sociological terms here.You can't completely describe an experience.You can adequately describe an experience.Oh, so that's what our issue is?It's not adequate?You don't think the embodied experience of being a pump jack worker will, uh, provide new knowledge or relevant knowledge to the turnover question?No, I- I think an adequate description of what it- what being a pump jack service engi- technician or engineer or maintainer, um, entails on a day-to-day basis, what- what- what that really entails will help the turnover problem.I think we need a union.Or it will put this company out of business, one of the 2.But anyways, the pro- either way, the problem will be solved.Have you considered unionization?have considered it.There you have it.I think we've answered this question.You can both, uh, fix your turnover problem and annoy your employees the anthropological way.And more importantly, if you're going through Bakersfield, stop and have a bite.Yeah.And we're not even sponsored by the Bakersfield, um, uh, you know, Chamber of Commerce or Restaurant Association or anything, but they should, man.This episode of People Stuff is not brought to you by the Bakersfield Chamber of Commerce, though we wish it was.Yeah, exactly.Okay.Well, speaking of annoying people the anthropological way, that's the end of this week's show.This week's show is brought to you by Robot Plumber.Sink leaking, but can't get someone to look at it for 3 weeks?Fear not, Robo- Robot Plumber is here for you.Fully automated plumbing for all those tough jobs.Powered by AI and big data, the new version of Robot Plumber only hallucinates 20% of plumbing problems.Ooh.Robot Plumber, it kind of works.Robot Plumber, only get shit on 20% of your bathroom.Hmm.Well, that's it for People Stuff.You can find all of what we're up to at our Linktree, Linktree backslash People Stuff Pod.Sign up for our Substack, catch our latest episodes, shop the merch store, Linktree backslash People Stuff Pod.Thanks for listening.Until next time, I'm Michael.And I'm Dan.And you can find us in downtown Bakersfield, eating our way- eating our way from Luigi's, the Pyrenees Cafe.It's so funny, like, my, uh, my grandfather, um-